My President mopped up the floor with Kerry’s Senate record last night in an undoubtful Bush debate win.
I have to say - that no matter which way you are voting this year - - I just can’t believe that, at this point in the race, there are actual, real, living and breathing undecideds! How does that happens three weeks to the elections when you have two guys running on completely different platforms.
To boil it down - Kerry is for big government involvement in everything from soup to nuts. Bush isn’t.
Where is the difficulty in making a choice there? You’re either for big government involvement in your day to day — or you’re not. You’re either for changing coaches midstream on the war on terror, or you’re not.
I don’t want to turn this into a Bush vs. Kerry thread - - we all know the talking points by now, dont’ we? I’m just curious as to the folks who haven’t made up their minds yet. What’s the hold out? How can there be undecideds in this thing at this point in time?
11:40 am on October 14th, 2004
*actual, real, living and breathing undecided* ::blush:: maybe I’m just not sure yet because it’s my first time..
12:44 pm on October 14th, 2004
Lisa, it is because it is not a simple one issue race, it is not about “big government watching you†over “Freedom”. Some republicans don’t agree with the way the war was waged, some Democrats do, some republicans are pro choice, some Dems are not. Etc.
For some of us the choice is clear cut, I’m sure that if they put a monkey on the republican ticket you would vote for it, and I would be the same way on the democrat side, but there are people out there that do not look at it in so black and white. They have to look at the pros and cons of each issue and what they think, and then vote on the basis of which camp they agree with more.
Branille, I think it is great that you are undecided, as you get older you will become cynical like Lisa and me, but it is great that you intend to go out and vote and care enough to be trying to form your opinion, which ever way you vote, good luck.
Alas I don’t get a vote as I am not a US citizen, but as I have said before I plan to shackle my republican wife on polling day
12:47 pm on October 14th, 2004
Oh and also a lot of those undecideds are more likely “none of you F*****G business”es
12:49 pm on October 14th, 2004
“…an undoubtful Bush debate win.” ? have you been taking Georges talking pills ?:razz:
1:01 pm on October 14th, 2004
“…an undoubtful Bush debate win.”?
I haven’t had time to post my thoughts on the debate yet …. truth be known it had bored me into a very comfortable sleep by about 10:10PM and by the time I woke up it was passed time to lay down again - but I didn’t see Bush win by any stretch unless he either pulled something really, really, big out of the hat in the last 15 minutes, or came out with a blockbuster closing statement.
He looked nervous, his little laughs were strained at best, he fumbled, and a swear he turned red at least twice. More later on the home blog
1:02 pm on October 14th, 2004
Oh Redfred - if only you knew me as well as you appear to think you do.
I dont’ believe Bush won the first two, which I’ve stated. I was dissapointed with his performance in the previous debates and wasn’t afraid to state it. Although, I can understand your dellusion here - - there are many Bush supporters (like Sean Hannity, for example) who would sing the praises of Bush even if he stood up there and said nothing for 2 hours! Give up the usual rhetoric here, because I ain’t buying it lol
Oh, and I wouldn’t vote for a republican monkey just because he was republican — though you have admittedly stated you would vote for a democrat monkey. You are the literal picture of the pot calling the kettle black! I dont’ vote a straight Republican ticket, just so you know. I vote my head and heart - - and that is not always on the right side of the ballot.
And Branille - I didn’t take brand new voters into consideration when talking about undecides. I can surely understand why a person who is brand new to ballot casting may take a bit more time in their decision making on the isses
Congrats for entering into the fun of Presidential (and other) election process! It can be fun and frustrating all at the same time lol
And Redfred - it may be none of my business, which is why I don’t hold a gun to anyone’s head to leave a comment here. They can respond at their own free will if they wish to discuss it. Man you’re on a roll today - what pills are you taking, btw?
1:03 pm on October 14th, 2004
Thanks, SL - as always, there are differing views on all sides
1:15 pm on October 14th, 2004
Sorry I did not intend for that to sound like it was none of “Lisa’s” business, I meant that a lot of those listed as undecided simply don’t care to answer the polls, rather than they are actually undecided. My apologies that that came across wrong.
PS I could have sworn that you declaired the first two debates as Bush victories, I must be mistaken:???:
Oh and I’m not takeing any pills, I’m just really bored at work today!!!!
1:29 pm on October 14th, 2004
Well, here I stated that I thought Bush came off like a whining, petulant schoolboy. And in these comments I said I thought the first was a draw. So - not exactly a stated Bush win, really.
And my apologies back for taking your statement wrong - I take it back, about the pills.
1:35 pm on October 14th, 2004
well then my memory is not as good as I thought!!! I’ll take back my apoligies and offer sincere ones instead!
How much influence do you think these debates have on the likes of us? and on the likes of Branille?
I would be interested in Branille’s view too…
2:29 pm on October 14th, 2004
You know, I almost think that if you don’t know who you’re voting for by now, you shouldn’t be voting. Of course, not really, but in a metaphorical sense. If you don’t support one of these guys by now, you won’t support them. I’m a believer that you shouldn’t vote against people but for them, and if you don’t support either one, don’t vote for either one.
Oh, and I wouldn’t vote for a Republican monkey either… but I would consider it if he was running against Kerry.
2:36 pm on October 14th, 2004
I hear ya, Laura
3:16 pm on October 14th, 2004
Err…. vote for someone, not against someone…. but you would consider voting for a monkey if it were running against Kerry…. Aren’t they kinda contradictory?
What’s the problem with voting against someone anyway? if you think that person is so totally wrong. I can tell you that democratically aligned as I am there would have been no way I would have voted for Gore last time around, thank what ever you believe in that we avoided that fiasco. I am not the greatest Kerry supporter, I think the democrats could have selected a better candidate but Bush is just embarrassing, he can’t string together a coherent sentence the whole war on Iraq thing keeps blowing up in his face (and I don’t have a problem with the war, I just don’t understand why they have handled it so poorly politically) and I don’t honestly think he understands what he talks about. Not to mention that he is an embarrassment as a representative of America to the world at large, we would do better with Jerry Springer.
4:47 pm on October 14th, 2004
I’m kind of in the same boat RedFred’s in: I don’t see this election as a referendum on government intervention vs. non-intervention. Neither party seems inclined to get the government as far out of my hair as I’d like . . .
I’m still undecided because, while I like the president, I can’t stand Cheney. Or Ashcroft. I’m not sure I want four more years of those guys hanging around.
True, I don’t know that Kerry/Edwards would be an improvement. Which is why I’m still undecided.
4:57 pm on October 14th, 2004
Kerry would not be an improvement. Would you want that guy in your living room for the next 4 years?
His “plans” are expensive and full of empty promises.
At this time of war, Mark, look at it this way - at least we would know what we are getting. We can’t handle inconsistency at a time like this.
6:39 pm on October 14th, 2004
K, I don’t vote based on plans or campaign promises–we all know those are basically hot gas, anyway, whichever side they come from.
So if the war’s not over in four years, what do we do then?
6:50 pm on October 14th, 2004
Personally, I think people are undecided because no one can decipher the truth in what either candidate is saying. You say Bush wiped the floor with Kerry’s Senate record. In reality, Bush completely lied about Kerry’s Senate record. You basically have to be willing to do all the legwork yourself to figure out who voted for what and why, since nothing is ever presented in a straightforward manner.
9:41 pm on October 14th, 2004
The Undecideds are the target of my stop the vote campaign! That why you must join up and stop them from voting!
5:39 am on October 15th, 2004
I’d guess there are a lot of people who are undecided on similar matters over here - Blair’s labour government seems to have taken over from the old conservative government, leaving us liberals / lefties / whatever-you-want-to-call-us wondering who the hell to vote for (the whole Iraq war thing has lost Blair a lot of support too). As many pepople I know would rather anything than have a conservative government, they’ll vote for Blair even if they don’t particularly like him or agree with many of his policies - so I can understand people being undecided or voting against a candidate.
6:10 am on October 15th, 2004
Blair is a very good politician, he is charismatic, a good orator, and would run circles around Bush or Kerry. Part of the problem here is that neither candidate is very good at communicating, Kerry is boring as hell and Bush is…. well I’m not going to say what I think Bush is. The race is probably going to be won by whomever keeps his mouth shut more between now and November.
One thing that I feel compelled to address is this War on Terror thing. A lot is being made about how you can trust Bush to wage this war, but I really don’t think this is the case. Sure he has beat up on Afghanistan and Iraq, and given 4 more years we will probably take on Iran and maybe even the Saudis, but that is not winning the war on Terror, Al-Quida is still out there folks, and no amount of conventional warfare is going to change that. Remember the 9/11 terrorists learned to fly in the US, they lived among us, they were not in Iraq. We have not defeated them we have not even damaged them enough to put them out temporarily. The troops patrolling the streets of Baghdad remind me of the British troops in Belfast that I saw throughout my childhood and they never made one iota of difference. You can’t beat Terrorism with a show of force, and I hope it doesn’t take the American people as long as it took the British to figure that out. I’m not suggesting that you vote for Kerry because he has a better plan for dealing with the problem, but I do so wish people wouldn’t hang their hat on Bushes war on terrorism, because it is doomed to failure.
6:52 am on October 15th, 2004
Not sure if I’d call Blair a good politician - although he’s rather more articulate than Bush (although that isn’t difficult!). He’s certainly lost a lot of trust recently.
The phrase “war on terror” is a rhetorical bullshit; an excuse to try and justify military action.
7:20 am on October 15th, 2004
Oh Tony is quite the politician, considering the backlash against him the fact that he is still in the race attests to that much.
12:20 pm on October 15th, 2004
Politics: a childish game (that Bush - and Blair - play well, regardless of their policies).
On a different note, Lisa - what are your thoughts on His Most Christian Majesty George Bush the II’s comments about his faith? Ok, if people want to believe in mythical deities that’s their problem - but when these people are in power ….. doesn’t any of this bother you as an atheist? (And surely Bush I saying that he didn’t regard atheists as citizens pissed you off ..?)
4:16 pm on October 15th, 2004
Well, Tim - I’m don’t have time at the moment to sit and weed through all the comments on that post - - but I read his main post. I don’t have a problem with Bush’s religon, you and I have talked about this before. He is a man of faith in god. I am a woman who doesn’t believe in god. It takes all kinds, Tim - tolerance goes both ways.
As for Bush I’s comments on atheists - - it wasn’t one of his more shining moments, now was it? But then, I don’t define the entirty of a man by one stupid comment made out of utter ignorance towards the group in which he speaks. I still like him, over all
7:37 pm on October 15th, 2004
It’s difficult - even for a Bush supporter like me - because Bush is a big-government conservative in the pocket of the Theocons. No big government involvement in your life? Bush has presided over the largest government expansion in the 20th century! He promotes programs like Faith-Based initiatives, which put the government in the nasty position of declaring what does and does not constitute a “true” religious faith. He opposes marriage equality on religious grounds - a very definite instance of government meddling in the affairs of individuals, rather that enabling them to achieve life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. His AG is blurring the lines of free expression by looking at innovative ways of cracking down on pornography. And don’t get me started about the war on drugs.
He still gets my vote, largely because I’m afeared of Kerry’s ideas surrounding health care, Iraq, and other critical issues. But it’s a vote with deep reservations.
9:27 am on October 18th, 2004
Lisa, you “don’t define the entirty of a man by one stupid comment “, how about 4 or 5, how about 10 or 20 ?
12:00 pm on October 18th, 2004
RedFred - I still tolerate you around here, don’t I?
j/k
Regarding Bush Sr. - I like him. I like his son. I kind of find his verbal mishaps to be part of his charm
12:11 pm on October 18th, 2004
Even after what Sr. said about Atheists?
Jr’s Mishaps might be charming if he was a childrens entertainer, but he is the president of one of the most powerful countries in the world. I would have no problems endoreing him in a campaign to become the 5th ‘wiggle’, I just expect more from a politition.
12:19 pm on October 18th, 2004
Sr. has his opinions about atheists, I have my opinions about christians and religious zealots. I just keep my opinions to myself. I’ve already stated that I thought Sr’s quote on atheists was ignorant.
Don’t you have people in your life who are somewhat ignorant on certain topics, but you love ‘em anyways? I could tick off a few.
12:22 pm on October 18th, 2004
yeah, but last time I checked they wern’t running for president….. and if they were I would be first in line to vote against them!
12:30 pm on October 18th, 2004
Well, I’ve lived enough in this life to know that no one is perfect, not even our Presidents, RedFred. Therefore, I don’t expect perfection out of them, nor do I expect that I’m going to agree with every single little thing about them, their beliefs or their policy.
I disagree with Sr’s quote on atheists, obviously. I think it ignorant. I hope he has since learned and opened his mind a bit on it. But I don’t hold it against the overall man.
Presidents are human, too.
12:40 pm on October 18th, 2004
30- look at your 13…so do you or don’t you vote against someone?
12:58 pm on October 18th, 2004
Lisa, perhaps I expect too much from a leader…. Perhaps I should lower my standards…. Perhaps monkeys might fly out my butt….
32, I don’t have a problem voting against someone, a lot of the undecided will be voting for the lesser of two evils, ergo voting to keep someone out rather than to put someone in. I don’t think my posts were contradictory, but I could be wrong….. Probably a good thing they won’t let me vote.
1:04 pm on October 18th, 2004
I rather think you’re unrealistic, but that’s just my humble opinion.
See, as a Kerry supporter, I don’t think you expect enough. As a Kerry supporter, it’s my opinion that your standards aren’t high enough. See how we differ?
And it’s never a good thing not to vote, no matter what side you’re voting for. Until Chris obtains his citizenship - he can’t vote here either. And he hates it. He wants to vote here, in this country.
Now - you go on ahead and have the last word in this thread, RedFred. Go on . . you know you wanna
2:38 pm on October 18th, 2004
I agree with you that Kerry is not perfect, and I do not pretend otherwise. And yes there are other issues besides the way they conduct themselves, there are just too many things about Dubya that make my skin crawl.
I am not as desperate to vote as Chris, as I could have citizenship if I wanted it, I’m just not sure that is the statement I want to make about myself, at least not yet.
5:26 pm on October 18th, 2004
Nah - I’m going to jump in and attempt the last word instead.
Your main posts give the impression that you have a simplistic, black-and-white conservative view of the world (or at least politics) where the guy you support is 100% right and any oponent in 100% wrong. It’s not until someone makes a particular comment (like I did about the atheism thing) that you show that there’s a lot more to you and things get interesting (this isn’t meant to sound patronising, it’s just craply worded)
Actually, sometimes you sound like a closet liberal ….. athiest, being “all for gay marriage”, D/s relationship (?) …
5:51 pm on October 18th, 2004
Well, darn Tim - I was giving RedFred the last word here. It’s sort of become tradition around here lol
You’re right - I’m not typical. Never claimed to be. Thanks for noticing
6:21 pm on October 18th, 2004
Sorry, there’s more (let me know if you’re getting bored with this!)
You sound more right-wing than conservative (not the same thing) - have you ever tried this? I’d be very interested to know your result.
“I have my opinions about christians and religious zealots. I just keep my opinions to myself.” - why keep them to yourself? I’d be interested in your views (might be some stuff we agree on!)
Ok, going now:wink:
8:05 pm on October 18th, 2004
When we delve into it - I’ve described myself as ‘moderate right’ in my political perspectives, whatever that really means. I’m fiscally conservative and moderate in my beliefs on social services - but definately not liberal on social beliefs. I dont’ believe in a hand OUT, but rather, a hand UP - there is a difference. … oh hell, this should really be a post someday, eh?
I’ll visit that link and let you know what I come up with, Tim.
3:41 pm on October 19th, 2004
Are you all done ?……
Ok then
THE LAST WORD… Ha!
6:14 pm on October 19th, 2004
You are soooooo predictable, Red. All a girl has gotta do is lay the trap - and you bite down hard. Have you always been this easy?
10:36 am on October 21st, 2004
I guess you would have to ask my wife….. she can probably tell you more about the last word bit too:shock: