I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death! ~ Patrick Henry
House Approves Flag-Burning amendment
The proposed one-line amendment to the Constitution reads, “The Congress shall have power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States.”
For the language to be added to the Constitution, it must be approved not only by two-thirds of each chamber but also by 38 states within seven years
In the car, on the ride home from the chinese restraunt the other night, Chris said, “Let me ask you something - knowing how you feel on the topic… do you think that flag burning should be illegal?”
Now Chris, and anyone who knows me, knows that I am very passionate about the flag. My emotions run deep. Yes, it’s a piece of cloth. Yes, it’s a symbol. To me, it’s not just the ‘logo’ of the United States - but it symbolic of all of the freedoms and liberties that we, as citizens, enjoy just by our mere citizenship in this country. It is a symbol of all the heroic men and women who fought and died for those freedoms and liberties - - of all of those heros who walked before us.
When my daughter’s teacher called home to tell me that she was refusing to stand during the Pledge of Allegiance - I had a long talk with that kid of mine. Turns out - the only reason she didn’t stand is that it upset the teacher, whom she dislikes. She says “It’s the only way I can make her mad and she can’t do anything about it because I’m free to sit if I want to - - I have that right as an American citizen!”
True that. She does. However - she had to endure a long lecture from me about what the flag really means. And while she feels she’s doing it to disrespect her teacher and get away with it - - what she is really doing is disrespecting the flag and what it stands for. She recieved a long lecture on the liberties and the freedoms that she takes for granted every single day. She heard all about the lack of freedom that girls her age have to endure in other countries who do not get to experince the same freedoms that she has. Long did we talk about the soldiers of this country who fought and died to give her those rights of expression.
She may not like her teacher. She may want to upset her teacher in any little way that she can, without getting into trouble for doing it. But she was using the flag of this country in order to do that and I told her that it was a very, very sad state of affairs. If she had a strong, valid, political stance where she felt she was justified in doing what she did - - then I’d give her the time to explain. But just to upset the teacher?? Sorry, that just does not fly with me.
Melissa has, ever since, stood for the Pledge of Allegiance and never again did I hear her utter that she has the right to sit.
Freedom in this country is something I treasure a great deal - and I try not to take it for granted on a day to day basis. I still get teary eyed when standing to sing along to the National Anthem at the start of a Packer’s game. I visited the Liberty Bell and got all misty eyed over the darn thing. It’s symbolism, for me. I fly my flag proudly and treat it with the respect that I feel it’s due.
Those are my feelings on the flag. My emotions and the feelings that I attach to the flag of this fine country.
My neighbor may not feel the same way about it. As a matter of fact, he may not even like it and what it stands for. He may not wish to fly it at all. Even further, he may want to take that flag and burn it to show his dissatisfaction with US policies - - expressing his dissent.
Now - seeing a flag burned in protest and dissent really just disgusts me. The emotional side of me would love to see the assholes who burn the flag get fined mightly - - or sent to jail for a few nights for their actions. That is my emotional, reactive position on it.
Upon further thought - - when I think of all of the things that the flag stands for… all of the reasons why I respect it - - those things boil down to freedom.
Telling my neighbor that he cannot express himself in that way takes away his freedom to express his discontent in the way in which he wants to. Now, a murderer is free to express himself by murdering another human being - however, that is not without some heavy consequence. However, the flag burner is not harming anyone . . . and as long as the flag burner is not placing anyone’s safety in jepardy . . then I begrudgingly allow him that right to express himself.
I don’t like it. I hate to see it. But, rationally, do not think it should be illegal in this country to do so.
As free as I am to fly my flag with pride is as free as my neighbor is to burn his in disgust.
Everyone please have a happy and safe holiday weekend! We’re packing up and heading down to the lake home in Alabama for two weeks. It’s a working holiday, I’m taking my computer with me and will be back online on Saturday and plan to get back to work after the holiday weekend is over.
This July 4th - I will be flying my flag high and proud, as many of my patriotic peers will be doing the same. I will remember all the freedoms and liberties that I, and my family, enjoy and are priviledged to experience in this country. I will be grateful for every single one of them - and for the men and women who walked before me on this earth and fought to ensure those freedoms for future generations in this country.
3:40 pm on June 30th, 2005
I too will be flying my flag. I don’t get what would make someone want to burn it, but that is for another day!:smile:
6:51 am on July 1st, 2005
‘Although absolute freedom - allowing everyone to do whatever they choose until it infringes upon others’ choices - is what most of us would like to see, the First Amendment give NO RIGHT to somebody burning our flag.
The right to free speech most likely (I wasn’t in the room when they decided to write the Bill of Rights) was not intended to encompass acts of expression other than publicly speaking. Stand on a milk crate on a public corner and tell me why you hate the war (any war) - that’s your right (but keep in mind that using that milk crate might have criminal consequence for you). But wear a T-shirt or hold a placard that a majority of society thinks to be graphic in any manner and you are not really covered by the intent of the First Amendment.
Expressing yourself by chaining yourself to a fence is not the same as free speech.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Just my 2¢. Thanks.
6:56 am on July 1st, 2005
Oh - and not to mention that we already have LAWS in the US Code that make requirements of how we handle and display our flag.
10:13 am on July 1st, 2005
I suppose if it’s your flag you should be able to burn it …?
2:25 pm on July 1st, 2005
If I had a place for a flag, I will be flying it high, too! But, uh…our apartment complex won’t let us.
This post will make me go on a long, 10-page rant if I don’t control myself, so I will just say, “Amen, sister!!!”
12:22 pm on July 4th, 2005
Fightin’ Side of Me
…
10:22 pm on July 5th, 2005
i pretty much agree with you. but keep in mind, just because your neighbor has the right to burn his flag, doesn’t remove your right to put it out. fire extinguisher away!
your daughter does have the right to sit, but i stand, and am glad you impressed on her to stand. she will be too in the long run.
7:29 am on July 6th, 2005
It does seem a little ironic to restrict someones freedom to desicrate a symbol of their freedom.
Most of all I wonder if congress has nothing more important to discuss, like the war, deficiet, social security…..
BTW, July 3rd, down came the Union Jack, up went the Star and Stripes.
7:56 am on July 6th, 2005
Is the American flag a symbol of freedom?
8:16 am on July 6th, 2005
To Americans it is….. “…with liberty and justice for all”….. “under god” no less….
8:27 am on July 6th, 2005
I don’t imagine it’s entirely true (liberty and justice for all) - any more that the UK is a “land of hope and glory, mother to the free”.
The problem I have with patriotism is it’s a form of xenophobia and self-centeredness. And what do you have to do to be truly American? What is “America” in this context - the physical land? Government? People? Traditions?
Of course this makes burning a flag a strange thing to do - if you’re doing it to say “I hate America” - well, what exactly is “America” …
8:38 am on July 6th, 2005
“Liberty and justice for most” doesn’t have the same ring to it
Patriotism is a form of Xenophobia, the same way as shoplifting is a form of armed robbery. I have no problem with basic partiotism, you should be proud of your country, or adoptive one. Both Britain and the US are substancially more free than the majority of the rest of the world, with strong stable economies and healthy social structures. I am proud to be associated with both countries. That doesn’t mean I hate other countries (except France
wink
which is what xenophobia is.
8:42 am on July 6th, 2005
Tim, Fred - - The American flag, to me, is a symbol of the freedoms that the citizens of this country enjoy - - it is also a symbol, to me, of the men and woman throughout history who fought and died for those freedoms. Their own freedoms, and the freedom for future generations to come.
Everyone has their own interpretation of what it means to them, I suppose. Like Tim mentioned - it could be a symbol of country - - or one of government…or one of traditions.
Everyone’s mileage will vary on that one.
9:46 am on July 6th, 2005
Time for the Pogo!
It’s dance time this week for the ladies of the cotillion, some of whom are donning their black leather jackets and motorcycle boots to go down and catch the punk groups that are now starting to tour again, such as…
11:42 am on July 6th, 2005
Section 8k of the flag code(1942) recomends burning as a method of disposing of a flag when “…it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display…” some might argue that a perfectly good brand new flag might meet this criteria if they are displeased with what the flag has come to represent…. playing devils advocate here.
7:16 am on July 8th, 2005
Very well said, Lisa.
9:27 am on July 8th, 2005
“To me, it’s not just the ‘logo’ of the United States - but it [sic] symbolic of all of the freedoms and liberties that we, as citizens, enjoy just by our mere citizenship in this country. It is a symbol of all the heroic men and women who fought and died for those freedoms and liberties - - of all of those heros who walked before us.”
With all due respect (and understanding that you do grant others the right to burn their flags, albeit reluctantly and in contradiction to your emotional reaction), the symbol is not the thing symbolized.
Confusing real world events with the shorthand symbols we use to refer to those events is dangerous, and often leads to exactly the kinds of heavyhanded restrictions on individual liberties that your post rightly questions.
The flag further confuses matters by being a symbol that refers to other symbols - “freedom”, “liberty”, “heroism”, etc. - rather than real world events. You can’t walk up to “freedom” and point at it; you can only think about it when deciding whether and how to judge people’s actions.
This is why it’s so easy for politicians of all stripes and motivations to co-opt “freedom” for their ends. If people aren’t clear about what they mean when they encounter or use the word “freedom”, then it can be used to mean just about anything - or, more often, nothing at all.
This is not to say that “freedom” doesn’t exist, but rather that we need to be very clear about what we mean when we refer to it. As you point out, “freedom” implies, among other ideas, the notion that your neighbour should be able to burn his flag, if so inclined.
If I wrote the word “freedom” on a piece of paper and then set fire to the paper, would your emotional response be the same as if I set fire to an American flag?
What if I wrote the word “teapot” instead? Would you still get upset? Chances are you don’t have the same emotional investment in tea that you have in freedom, liberty, and the sacrifices of your forebears.
Taking this metaphor back to the flag, what if I set fire to a tea-towel? Chances are you wouldn’t feel “disgust” toward me.
It’s good that you’re trying to think around your emotions. However, it’s also a good idea to explore why you are responding emotionally to a symbolic act (and an act that can be interpreted a number of different ways, at that) as if it was a material attack. It’s important and valuable to respond emotionally to real events, but dangerous and misleading to react to symbolic “events” as if they were real events.
12:33 pm on July 8th, 2005
you forget Tim and I are British and are very fond of our tea…. what you suggest we do to a tea towel is quite frankly blasphemous.
6:13 am on July 25th, 2005
Personally, I have always found the act of pledging allegiance to a flag freaky. I also find it very strange that in country of so many millions of like minded people we actually need to remind ourselves of who we are through symbolism - such is the lack of our true feeling of freedom and security. It’s not actually meant to be a symbol to the people of the country but to be an icon/logo for other countries to recognise us. That fact we do need to remind ourselves is really quite sad. Do we not know who are? Where we’re from? Or know where our patriotism may lay?
Ironically, a country built on rebellion to make a rebellious act illegal seems very odd. The bottom line is this… if you bought it, it’s yours and as long as it does not have a heartbeat, you are free to do with it as you will. However, the act of setting fire to something in a public place is not only childish but dangerous and I’m sure there must be a law about that.
Again, the fact your daughter sat down to annoy her teacher was not unpatriotic – actually is it an act of the very opposite as she understood that she was able to. But the whole ear bashing about the flag just because she wanted to upset her teacher was a little much. Although you must be pleased she has the intellect to know how to upset her teacher without actually being abusive to anyone – she’ll make a politician lol
A flag does not make us who we are. It does not make a nation – it is a symbol to others to understand who WE are.