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	<title>Comments on: Custom Development Query - the quest for perfect blog toast</title>
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	<link>http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/</link>
	<description>Design, Life, Culture...Whatever</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 06:18:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: David Coveney</title>
		<link>http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-301981</link>
		<dc:creator>David Coveney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-301981</guid>
		<description>I'm a little late to this thread, but just came across it by chance when looking for something completely different.

As WordPress developers, both themes and plugins, the answer is simple.  The code belongs 100% to us unless we say otherwise.

Open source makes it a wee bit trickier, however, as we believe in that too!  So what we basically tend to do is to not release the code (we don't have to - even if we write the code under GPL) but the client can if they so choose.

I don't believe that all WordPress plugins are GPL either, but that's down to an interpretation of how the linking works.  It's untested stuff legally, so we can never be sure.  So we write code both with and without the GPL license.  We give a bit, we get a bit.  We do need to pay the rent though, so have to be a little careful /:)

Incidentally, in the arts worlds it's the same - the copyright of a photo belongs to the photographer by default unless there's a contract that's signed that over to someone else.  At least, that's how it is in the UK.

&lt;em&gt;(&#187; Read David Coveney's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://www.interconnectit.com/anvil-wordpress-theme/' rel="nofollow"&gt;Anvil GPL WordPress Theme&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a little late to this thread, but just came across it by chance when looking for something completely different.</p>
<p>As WordPress developers, both themes and plugins, the answer is simple.  The code belongs 100% to us unless we say otherwise.</p>
<p>Open source makes it a wee bit trickier, however, as we believe in that too!  So what we basically tend to do is to not release the code (we don&#8217;t have to - even if we write the code under GPL) but the client can if they so choose.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t believe that all WordPress plugins are GPL either, but that&#8217;s down to an interpretation of how the linking works.  It&#8217;s untested stuff legally, so we can never be sure.  So we write code both with and without the GPL license.  We give a bit, we get a bit.  We do need to pay the rent though, so have to be a little careful <img src='http://justagirlintheworld.com/smilies/yahoo_eyebrow.gif' alt='&#47;&#58;&#41;' class='wp-smiley' width='18' height='18' title='&#47;&#58;&#41;' /></p>
<p>Incidentally, in the arts worlds it&#8217;s the same - the copyright of a photo belongs to the photographer by default unless there&#8217;s a contract that&#8217;s signed that over to someone else.  At least, that&#8217;s how it is in the UK.</p>
<p><em>(&raquo; Read David Coveney&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://www.interconnectit.com/anvil-wordpress-theme/' rel="nofollow">Anvil GPL WordPress Theme</a>)</em></p>
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		<title>By: Lisa</title>
		<link>http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-301122</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 02:33:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-301122</guid>
		<description>Alex, you do make it sound rather easy, but I think the confusion comes in with the consumers who make the purchase without having an understanding of what 'GPL'd' really means, in regards to their project.

It is confusing for non-technical consumers (sometimes even for technical ones!).  

I do understand what you're saying about code that relies on a GPL code base ... I think this guys outrage is that he just didn't know, and made assumptions about his purchase.

We (developers, designers, consultants) can't be held responsible for their assumptions - but can probably do a lot towards avoiding those false assumptions to begin with.

Maybe, with a little up front education on the GPL-ness of it all, the guy wouldn't be so upset about his blog toast being released.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex, you do make it sound rather easy, but I think the confusion comes in with the consumers who make the purchase without having an understanding of what &#8216;GPL&#8217;d&#8217; really means, in regards to their project.</p>
<p>It is confusing for non-technical consumers (sometimes even for technical ones!).  </p>
<p>I do understand what you&#8217;re saying about code that relies on a GPL code base &#8230; I think this guys outrage is that he just didn&#8217;t know, and made assumptions about his purchase.</p>
<p>We (developers, designers, consultants) can&#8217;t be held responsible for their assumptions - but can probably do a lot towards avoiding those false assumptions to begin with.</p>
<p>Maybe, with a little up front education on the GPL-ness of it all, the guy wouldn&#8217;t be so upset about his blog toast being released.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-301120</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 00:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-301120</guid>
		<description>There are two things in play here:

1. Copyright
2. License

The copyright is basically who owns the code. The license is what you can do with it.

Plugins and add-ons that rely on a GPL'd codebase are generally considered to have "caught" GPL as a result, and distribution of this code triggers a GPL license accordingly.

Note: IANAL and you should definitely read about copyright, license and the GPL on your own if you are doing professional work around any or all of these areas.

&lt;em&gt;(&#187; Read Alex's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://lessig.org/blog/2008/02/20_minutes_or_so_on_why_i_am_4.html' rel="nofollow"&gt;20 minutes or so on why I am 4Barack (Lessig Blog)&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are two things in play here:</p>
<p>1. Copyright<br />
2. License</p>
<p>The copyright is basically who owns the code. The license is what you can do with it.</p>
<p>Plugins and add-ons that rely on a GPL&#8217;d codebase are generally considered to have &#8220;caught&#8221; GPL as a result, and distribution of this code triggers a GPL license accordingly.</p>
<p>Note: IANAL and you should definitely read about copyright, license and the GPL on your own if you are doing professional work around any or all of these areas.</p>
<p><em>(&raquo; Read Alex&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://lessig.org/blog/2008/02/20_minutes_or_so_on_why_i_am_4.html' rel="nofollow">20 minutes or so on why I am 4Barack (Lessig Blog)</a>)</em></p>
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		<title>By: Amy</title>
		<link>http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300871</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 00:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300871</guid>
		<description>I wonder if he paid for the services with his credit card?  With some you can request a refund if you have problems with a vendor/retailer and let the credit card company hash it out.

&lt;em&gt;(&#187; Read Amy's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://procheinamy.mu.nu/archives/251880.php' rel="nofollow"&gt;Kinda Goes Along With the Whole Theme Here.&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if he paid for the services with his credit card?  With some you can request a refund if you have problems with a vendor/retailer and let the credit card company hash it out.</p>
<p><em>(&raquo; Read Amy&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://procheinamy.mu.nu/archives/251880.php' rel="nofollow">Kinda Goes Along With the Whole Theme Here.</a>)</em></p>
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		<title>By: Debbie</title>
		<link>http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300843</link>
		<dc:creator>Debbie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300843</guid>
		<description>A suggestion...maybe a thread on Gravatars. They are a mystery to me.

&lt;em&gt;(&#187; Read Debbie's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://www.weirdthingsthathappened.com/2008/01/11/road-rage-missed/' rel="nofollow"&gt;Road Rage Missed&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A suggestion&#8230;maybe a thread on Gravatars. They are a mystery to me.</p>
<p><em>(&raquo; Read Debbie&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://www.weirdthingsthathappened.com/2008/01/11/road-rage-missed/' rel="nofollow">Road Rage Missed</a>)</em></p>
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		<title>By: Debbie</title>
		<link>http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300842</link>
		<dc:creator>Debbie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:34:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300842</guid>
		<description>What a great discussion! Did this really happen to someone? From what we're learning in High School Redesign, because so many things can now be outsourced at a much cheaper price, America is moving toward an "idea" society. Since so many things are mass produced, and there are so many choices for any one product, the "seller" is what makes it different or unique, that stamp the individual puts on any product or idea.

So I said all that to say, the idea is the product. The code is the "mass manufacturing" and can be outsourced. Thanks for the lesson in jurisprudence.

&lt;em&gt;(&#187; Read Debbie's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://www.weirdthingsthathappened.com/2008/01/11/road-rage-missed/' rel="nofollow"&gt;Road Rage Missed&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a great discussion! Did this really happen to someone? From what we&#8217;re learning in High School Redesign, because so many things can now be outsourced at a much cheaper price, America is moving toward an &#8220;idea&#8221; society. Since so many things are mass produced, and there are so many choices for any one product, the &#8220;seller&#8221; is what makes it different or unique, that stamp the individual puts on any product or idea.</p>
<p>So I said all that to say, the idea is the product. The code is the &#8220;mass manufacturing&#8221; and can be outsourced. Thanks for the lesson in jurisprudence.</p>
<p><em>(&raquo; Read Debbie&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://www.weirdthingsthathappened.com/2008/01/11/road-rage-missed/' rel="nofollow">Road Rage Missed</a>)</em></p>
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		<title>By: The Lisa Show</title>
		<link>http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300835</link>
		<dc:creator>The Lisa Show</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:10:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300835</guid>
		<description>What can I say, I read toast and I get drawn in. ;)

&lt;em&gt;(&#187; Read The Lisa Show's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/thelisashow/~3/214574551/delurking-day-2008.html' rel="nofollow"&gt;Delurking Day 2008&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What can I say, I read toast and I get drawn in. <img src='http://justagirlintheworld.com/smilies/yahoo_wink.gif' alt='&#59;&#41;' class='wp-smiley' width='18' height='18' title='&#59;&#41;' /></p>
<p><em>(&raquo; Read The Lisa Show&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/thelisashow/~3/214574551/delurking-day-2008.html' rel="nofollow">Delurking Day 2008</a>)</em></p>
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		<title>By: Mike Goad</title>
		<link>http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300833</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Goad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300833</guid>
		<description>"Do you think itâ€™s the developers responsibility to inform their client that they have that option?"

I doubt if most developers are well versed in the work-for-hire concept. I think it's the sweat-of-the-brow concept that they're going by:  "I did the development work, so it's mine."  In this case,  without any documentation to prove otherwise, they're correct. (Copyright is &lt;em&gt;so&lt;/em&gt; much fun. ;))

&lt;em&gt;(&#187; Read Mike Goad's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://exit78.com/weblog/big-bump-in-the-road-for-my-online-plans-perhaps/' rel="nofollow"&gt;BIG BUMP in the road for my online plans?. perhaps.&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Do you think itâ€™s the developers responsibility to inform their client that they have that option?&#8221;</p>
<p>I doubt if most developers are well versed in the work-for-hire concept. I think it&#8217;s the sweat-of-the-brow concept that they&#8217;re going by:  &#8220;I did the development work, so it&#8217;s mine.&#8221;  In this case,  without any documentation to prove otherwise, they&#8217;re correct. (Copyright is <em>so</em> much fun. <img src='http://justagirlintheworld.com/smilies/yahoo_giggle.gif' alt='&#59;&#41;&#41;' class='wp-smiley' width='18' height='18' title='&#59;&#41;&#41;' /></p>
<p><em>(&raquo; Read Mike Goad&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://exit78.com/weblog/big-bump-in-the-road-for-my-online-plans-perhaps/' rel="nofollow">BIG BUMP in the road for my online plans?. perhaps.</a>)</em></p>
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		<title>By: Lindsey</title>
		<link>http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300832</link>
		<dc:creator>Lindsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 02:01:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300832</guid>
		<description>In my opinion, the use of the plugin should exclusively go to the client - they purchased the product.  However, it should NEVER be separated from the developer's name - the work done is still the programmer's.

It's like commissioned art.  The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel was commissioned by the Pope, and it belongs to the Church to do with as they please.  However, you always hear it referred to as Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel . . .

And I think that both parties should approve release to the general public if that is what the client wants to do with it.  These things should all be discussed up front . . .

&lt;em&gt;(&#187; Read Lindsey's last blog post..&lt;a href='http://www.mysuspensionofdisbelief.com/2007/12/09/shes-finally-able-to-rest/' rel="nofollow"&gt;She's finally able to rest . . .&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my opinion, the use of the plugin should exclusively go to the client - they purchased the product.  However, it should NEVER be separated from the developer&#8217;s name - the work done is still the programmer&#8217;s.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s like commissioned art.  The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel was commissioned by the Pope, and it belongs to the Church to do with as they please.  However, you always hear it referred to as Michaelangelo&#8217;s Sistine Chapel . . .</p>
<p>And I think that both parties should approve release to the general public if that is what the client wants to do with it.  These things should all be discussed up front . . .</p>
<p><em>(&raquo; Read Lindsey&#8217;s last blog post..<a href='http://www.mysuspensionofdisbelief.com/2007/12/09/shes-finally-able-to-rest/' rel="nofollow">She&#8217;s finally able to rest . . .</a>)</em></p>
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		<title>By: Lisa</title>
		<link>http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300831</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:41:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300831</guid>
		<description>@Lisa (from the Lisa Show - - 'lest anyone think I'm talking to myself)... from what I know about you so far... I figure - you're just here for the toast so you can pile tons of garlic on it. :p

Regarding your question whether he can sue -- I'm sure he can attempt to sue.. it would be a very costly matter to pursue, however.. and most likely, as Mike suggested above - since it wasn't in writing that it was a 'work for hire' - he'd probably lose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Lisa (from the Lisa Show - - &#8216;lest anyone think I&#8217;m talking to myself)&#8230; from what I know about you so far&#8230; I figure - you&#8217;re just here for the toast so you can pile tons of garlic on it. <img src='http://justagirlintheworld.com/smilies/yahoo_tongue.gif' alt='&#58;&#112;' class='wp-smiley' width='18' height='18' title='&#58;&#112;' /></p>
<p>Regarding your question whether he can sue &#8212; I&#8217;m sure he can attempt to sue.. it would be a very costly matter to pursue, however.. and most likely, as Mike suggested above - since it wasn&#8217;t in writing that it was a &#8216;work for hire&#8217; - he&#8217;d probably lose.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa</title>
		<link>http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300830</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:39:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300830</guid>
		<description>@Michelle - again, as above, informing the clients of their options is key here.  For me, the custom design work that I've done is not licensed for release, under any circumstances - - unless my clients wish to pay for an extended license on the product. 

They are informed of this up front - so there are no questions later.  I think that's what should have happened in this scenario.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Michelle - again, as above, informing the clients of their options is key here.  For me, the custom design work that I&#8217;ve done is not licensed for release, under any circumstances - - unless my clients wish to pay for an extended license on the product. </p>
<p>They are informed of this up front - so there are no questions later.  I think that&#8217;s what should have happened in this scenario.</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa</title>
		<link>http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300829</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justagirlintheworld.com/custom-development-query-the-quest-for-perfect-blog-toast/#comment-300829</guid>
		<description>@Mike - very true about the 'work for hire' bit.  Do you think it's the developers responsibility to inform their client that they have that option?  Or should the client already know this, just walking in.  Lots of clients are not well versed on such copyright issues - while technically the developer is right in this situaiton, I do see fault in not informing the client by way of written contract, or even a TOS statement, warning them that the work can/will be released to the general public upon completion - - unless....yada yada.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mike - very true about the &#8216;work for hire&#8217; bit.  Do you think it&#8217;s the developers responsibility to inform their client that they have that option?  Or should the client already know this, just walking in.  Lots of clients are not well versed on such copyright issues - while technically the developer is right in this situaiton, I do see fault in not informing the client by way of written contract, or even a TOS statement, warning them that the work can/will be released to the general public upon completion - - unless&#8230;.yada yada.</p>
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